If I Were Asked
2006.03.16 2:06
If I were asked why I don't write Japanese any more, I would replay. They(Japanese people) don't understand my Japanese, while English speakers understand my English.
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Well, I do understand your English(Score:1)
by
jawtheshark (198669) * <
slashdot@jawthesh[ ].com ['ark' in gap]> on 2006.03.16 7:08 (
#14928088) (
http://www.jawtheshark.com/ Last Journal:
2006.04.26 23:29)
And I most certainly would not be able to understand your Japanese.
I did read some Japanese recently, tough. Okay, it was translated in German. Have you ever heard of the manga "hadashi no gen". During *the* anniversary I read some articles about the event and I saw there was a manga. A praised manga. I bought all of them. I did not regret it...
I know, this is not the kind of reply you expected. I'm sorry about that. My replies do confirm that you are read tough...
---- A sharkless slashdot is a toothless slashdot. -- Turg (19864)
Re:Well, I do understand your English(Score:1)
by
mercedo (822671) * on 2006.03.17 3:01 (
#14935007) (
http://mercedo-compl.../2006/04/zen-ya.html Last Journal:
2006.04.28 3:11)
People didn't understand my Japanese because my way of use Japanese was too diffucult. Japanese is as a language not cut out for expressing logics, theoretical thinking, yet if I use it I had to make a tower of Babel in Japanese - I mean my Japanese was too difficult for them to understand.
In my lifetime I never read any manga (except for tabloid version of pornography). I think that the book of title you mentioned are related to the aftermath of atomic bomb atrocity in Hiroshima. Manga limits the range of my imagination, so I've been kept them away from my life.
--Ancient Greek Philosophers -18c Enlightenment Thinkers -Slashdotters
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Language is a funny thing(Score:2)
by
AB3A (192265) on 2006.03.16 9:39 (
#14929276) (
http://slashdot.org/~AB3A/journal Last Journal:
2006.03.15 8:15)
I've been bilingual in my past too. I attended Israeli public school for fourth grade and seventh grade. Toward the end of seventh grade I was pretty close to bilingual in Hebrew as well as English. In some ways I found that speaking Hebrew was easier, and in some things I spoke English easier.It was mostly a matter of where my vocabulary was. With subjects relating to school I spoke Hebrew better. However if the subject was electronics, I tended to speak English.Just because a language is one's mother tongue doesn't mean that you'll remain proficient with it in every endeavor. Some subjects will develop better if you use the vocabulary from the language where you learned it first.I think that may be why you've written your JE...
--Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:1)
by
mercedo (822671) * on 2006.03.17 3:37 (
#14935457) (
http://mercedo-compl.../2006/04/zen-ya.html Last Journal:
2006.04.28 3:11)
As a matter of fact I was reading almost all valuable reading stuffs or classics in Japanese in my freshman and sophomore year. My reading stuff had been gradually changed from sophomore year to junior. When I started majoring in economics in junior year(3rd grade), my entire reading stuff changed almost drastically. I started reading English articles earnestly at age 23, but till that time I had already completed reading almost all classics of general education in Japanese. (I mean I started reading books in my speciality from age 23.)
Some subjects will develop better if you use the vocabulary from the language where you learned it first.
This is in part true, but not entirely. I learned English mostly by trying to learn by heart all the vocabulary in a dictionary. Then later I applied my English skill to the subject specified. So I must say almost all my knowledge was acquired through my Japanese first then later I have been translating my acquired knowledge into English expression. Still this way has been working well.
But now I don't particulary define the knowledge acquired by Japanese and by English. I have been obtaining knowledge, information from both mainly in English, partly in Japanese.
Language only indicates superficial differences, if we look into the depth of nature underlying these superficial expressions, we can see through the insight by penetrating their superficial differences.
--Ancient Greek Philosophers -18c Enlightenment Thinkers -Slashdotters
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Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:2)
by
Interrobang (245315) * on 2006.03.17 6:38 (
#14936952) (
http://www.sara-stewart.com/ Last Journal:
2006.04.25 10:00)
That's an interesting observation about Hebrew. I'm learning Hebrew, and I'd like to become better at it because I think it's a powerful engine for expressing emotion and experience -- very good for a writer who wants to climb into the peak seat and drive.Mercedo, do you think that Japanese's radical change in the last half-century or so might be contributing to your becoming distant from the linguistic mainstream? I thought of this because I was discussing (and we're back to Hebrew again) how present-day Modern Hebrew is radically different from the Hebrew of even 50 years ago. NaveWeiss was helping me translate "Omrim Yeshna Eretz" into English, because I was having a hard time with it. Then I remembered how different older Japanese is to newer Japanese, even if we're talking about Japanese as it was spoken around WWII, so that sticks with me.I am more or less functional in English, French, and Spanish, and I have some Japanese, although I've lost much of it in the 10 years or so since I last really used it, and I also have some basic Hebrew (better than my Japanese at this point, I think).
--
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script. [slashdot.org]
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Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:2)
by
AB3A (192265) on 2006.03.17 22:37 (
#14941061) (
http://slashdot.org/~AB3A/journal Last Journal:
2006.03.15 8:15)
I should mention that modern Hebrew is very nearly a different language from biblical Hebrew. Reading Biblical Hebrew is like an English speaker reading Beowulf.Language morphs. Even modern english changes. New words are added. There even some ethnic additions. The "Ebonics" craze may have been good for a laugh here and there, but the reality is that many phrases from it made it to mainstream culture of North American English speakers.
--Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
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Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:1)
by
mercedo (822671) * on 2006.03.18 3:33 (
#14943528) (
http://mercedo-compl.../2006/04/zen-ya.html Last Journal:
2006.04.28 3:11)
Mercedo, do you think that Japanese's radical change in the last half-century or so might be contributing to your becoming distant from the linguistic mainstream?
Uhm...difficult question. But I must say No. My key to success was not to concern around me.
Japanese language as an official language in our daily use, hasn't changed at all from what it was 50 years ago. Grammar is exactly the same. Vocabulary..I think you are talking about vocabulary. Vocabulary we use in our daily conversation may be very different from what it was 5, 10, 25, 50 years ago. But the language our constitution, many other laws were written, or the language in the main newspaper, is completely the same as what we now use. According to the survey, the number of foreign loan words are increasing continuously. The rate of foreign words in our national language -mainly from English was about 7% soon after the World War II, now the rate is 17%, the rate has been definitely increasing but it is just a matter in rate, when it comes to the frequency of using words, we use tens of thousands times of more Japanese traditional words -mainly from China than other foreign words like English. In the world of law, we use no English words.
This reply might not be the one you are expecting from me, but the truth is so.
I thought of this because I was discussing (and we're back to Hebrew again) how present-day Modern Hebrew is radically different from the Hebrew of even 50 years ago.
This doesn't apply to the case of Japanese. Japanese language is basically consisted in a large number of Chinese words -it is the same as the case of Korean language. We -both Koreans and Japanese always use more than 70% of Chinese words very frequently in our daily life, and this is still unchanged. Our basic strata of culture take deep roots in Chinese culture, and it is not likely to change in half a century or a century, it takes much more century -though I can't tell exactly what will become of as to the future of Japanese language. Unless we experience entire social change -catastrophy, being invaded by other country, earthquake, Japan archipelagoes submerge, etc., Japanese language won't change.
NaveWeiss was helping me translate "Omrim Yeshna Eretz" into English, because I was having a hard time with it. Then I remembered how different older Japanese is to newer Japanese, even if we're talking about Japanese as it was spoken around WWII, so that sticks with me.
In particular fields like computer, etc. its Japanese is different from old Japanese, but such situations entirely depend on the 'fields' - we had no fields as to computers, so we had nothing for it but to use English. In the fields where no English alternatives are necessary, we always use Chinese. That won't change easily.
I'm afraid the situation in Hebrew and Japanese around language circumstances is just different. Hebrew is written in consonants with the help of vowel signs. Japanese is, on the other hands, written basically in ideograms called Chinese characters with the help of Japanese phonetic signs, so if we thought about the difference in origin of language in the first place between two languages, the chasm is enormous.
In spite of all claims I made, Japanese people start using English more and more from now on. I'm just saying that doesn't cause the change of Japanese language. Japanese language will remain unchanged till it's used by nobody.
--Ancient Greek Philosophers -18c Enlightenment Thinkers -Slashdotters
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Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:2)
by
Interrobang (245315) * on 2006.03.19 13:47 (
#14950841) (
http://www.sara-stewart.com/ Last Journal:
2006.04.25 10:00)
I think the vocabulary and the orthography is changing, and, speaking as someone who speaks some Japanese (and no Chinese) but who has been around a lot of fluent and/or native Chinese speakers, I think your contention that Japanese contains Chinese words is somewhat inaccurate. It's true that some kanji retain the original Chinese meanings, but a lot of even the basic words aren't the same anymore; otherwise someone with an understanding of Japanese would be able to understand more spoken Chinese than they can. Japanese may preserve older Chinese pronunciations, but that's a linguistic constant anywhere you have two isolated, diverging linguistic groups. You even find that in some subdialects of English, where old regional dialect words are preserved in linguistically and geographically isolated speaker groups, but lost in the originating linguistic group (eg. late Middle English Northern dialect words preserved among Appalachian communities in the United States, but lost in England's north).I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm speaking linguistically, and you seem to be reacting out of a sense of cultural pride. I'm not impugning your language, and it isn't like I know nothing about either of the languages I'm talking about. (As we speak, I'm listening to IDF Radio.) I would posit that the vocabulary and orthographical changes in Japanese (and you can't deny that there are more hiragana and katakana used in modern Japanese than even post-WWII, and again, I can explain why from a linguistic point of view, if you like) are in fact significant, and indicative of a change in the language at large, albeit a slow, incremental change. That, again, is not meant to imply that Japanese is disappearing, or even changing as much as the difference between Old and Middle English. I tend to think of it in terms of the language becoming more user-friendly. ;)I'd argue that there is a fundamental parallel between the Israeli and Japanese cultural experiences that has shaped your languages -- both cultures underwent a radical redefinition of cultural self right around 1945. In Japan, you had the end of WWII and the US occupation (and that reshaped your culture probably more than you're aware, and left some really interesting ripple effects in North American culture, too -- ask me about W. Edwards Deming sometime), and in Israel, they expelled both the British and Palestinians and established their own state.The actual mechanics of speaking or writing are actually irrelevant to the processes going on behind the scenes.
--
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script. [slashdot.org]
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Re:Language is a funny thing(Score:1)
by
mercedo (822671) * on 2006.03.19 18:49 (
#14951356) (
http://mercedo-compl.../2006/04/zen-ya.html Last Journal:
2006.04.28 3:11)
I think the vocabulary and the orthography is changing,
Before the end of World War II we were using exactly the same number and kinds of Chinese character as Chinese people had done, I mean we didn't have limitation to use Chinese character. Chinese people use 5000 Chinese characters, and we were using the same number, only after the World War II, the number of Chinese character we use in our daily life was limited to 1850. We called them the list of Chinese characters in our daily use (toh'yoh' kanji). I just feel amazed to see how our culture was so derived from Chinese culture. And also the shape of kanji was altered to simpler ones, and hiragana started being used to write phonetic connection between kanjis, and katakana was exclusively started being used to write loan words. Besides the way to use hiragana, katakana also altered to more colloquial ones( this was similar to the cases like you start spelling thru instead of through, anyway when it comes to orthography, the way to write and spell changed greatly. So orthography changed one time very greatly soon after the World War II, but since then orthography has remained the same.
I think your contention that Japanese contains Chinese words is somewhat inaccurate.
You see English words contain tens of thousands of Greek and Latin words, yet their meaning is somewhat different from Greek (especially in the case of Greek, since Latin only exists in classics). So it depends how to see current languages, we can say Japanese contains many Chinese words in a way we say as English contains many Greek words, but apparently their meanings greatly differs from what Chinese people today use them. So when you say,
It's true that some kanji retain the original Chinese meanings, but a lot of even the basic words aren't the same anymore;
Sure, and when it comes to pronunciations, we can hardly tell two words are correlated. (For example, Japan-English, Ilbon-Korean, Rieben-Chinese, Nippon/Nihon-Japanese are all from a Chinese word that referred to old Japan. This is similar to the cases like episcopal-bishop, both are from Greek, but it's hard to tell just guessing from pronunciation and spelling.)
and you seem to be reacting out of a sense of cultural pride. I'm not impugning your language,
No, no, I'm not a kind of person who takes prides in our own culture. Our native language -both English and Japanese only show temporal appearnces affected from our historical backgrounds. Our native tongue had been formed from exteremely strong influence of Chinese culture since China had been played an exteremely important role in the history of East Asia, but now since USA has been playing a very decisive role upon our culture in general, our native tongue will have more and more English words and will be affected by it much more than ever. Changes seem to be slow, incremental though.
That, again, is not meant to imply that Japanese is disappearing,
But I meant it. I think Japanese as a language is disappearing. The number of Japanese speakers and English speakers were almost the same when Admiral Perry arrived at the offshore of Uraga, Yokosuka, late 19 century. But now the speaker of English is five or six times more than Japanese speakers. Japanese is as a way to communicate with the people of the rest of the world, it is obsolete. We Japanese even among same nationals will start using English as is the case with pilots in aeroplane. At least I believe we ought to adopt more convenient way of communication. The way for us to use language ought not to be absolute ones.
I tend to think of it in terms of the language becoming more user-friendly. ;)
I observe since in the fields of anime, manga, or other fields where Japanese culture is dominant, many Japanese words started being used directly -it's more friendly for us to use origami instead of saying 'the way to fold paper artistically',sashimi, instead of saying 'slice of raw fish that can be eaten in handy'.
and that reshaped your culture probably more than you're aware
I guess so, since I was born after the war.
ask me about W. Edwards Deming sometime
I ask you now.
The actual mechanics of speaking or writing are actually irrelevant to the processes going on behind the scenes.
The Internet or other many media allow us to get closer more and more. We will start using the same language soon. Probably English vocabulary will adopt more loan words than now from now and English will be used more and more in many occasions here in Japan. Language only indicates our superficial difference that we had in our historical background, but honestly speaking we feel pain when we got injured, we feel happy when we could communicate. We share the nature underlying our verbal expressions. That's more important than any other things.
--Ancient Greek Philosophers -18c Enlightenment Thinkers -Slashdotters
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